Getting Out of Your Comfort Zone and Embracing Change | Featuring: Former CEO of Hill Holliday and The Boston Globe, Mike Sheehan

Transcript:

Elise Orlowski (00:08):

I’m Elisa Lasky, a senior video director here at Cramer.

Tripp Underwood (00:10):

And I’m Tripp Underwood, a creative director at Cramer.

Elise Orlowski (00:13):

And at Cramer, we work with so many incredibly fascinating people from all over multiple industries.

Tripp Underwood (00:18):

We have so many great conversations, many that are just too good to keep to ourself, so now we’re sharing them with the world.

Elise Orlowski (00:23):

Right here from Cramer Studios.

Tripp Underwood (00:25):

This is Pivot Points.

Elise Orlowski (00:30):

Cut.

Tripp, it’s good to see you.

Tripp Underwood (00:38):

In person! Not on Zoom.

Elise Orlowski (00:39):

I know! What’s going on? It’s a little early. Usually we’re drinking those craft artisan beers during this time but it’s a little early so we’re …

Tripp Underwood (00:47):

Stimulating conversation can happen in the morning, too.

Elise Orlowski (00:48):

Yeah. We got our coffees. But are you drinking black?

Tripp Underwood (00:51):

Always.

Elise Orlowski (00:51):

Yeah. I got my ice going on. I’m really excited for this episode. Who do we have this morning?

Tripp Underwood (00:58):

Today we have Mike Sheehan, whose a incredibly accomplished and respected person within the Boston business community. And besides that, he and I actually have some stuff in common.

Elise Orlowski (01:07):

Oh, really?

Tripp Underwood (01:08):

We’re both from the South shore.

Elise Orlowski (01:09):

Oh, wow.

Tripp Underwood (01:09):

He grew up in the neighboring town to the one I grew up in. Both spent time in marketing and journalism. He was at The Boston Globe a little after I got my writing career over there. And we both know our way around a bar, apparently. We’ll get into that later. But he and I have that going us. He was an advertising executive at Hill Holiday for a number of years.

Elise Orlowski (01:30):

Awesome. Amazing.

Tripp Underwood (01:31):

Which is a powerhouse here in Boston. After that, he went over to helm The Boston Globe, as I mentioned earlier, at a really interesting time for the paper. Boston’s paper of record was undergoing a change in ownership, which is huge for an institution that’s been around for that long. At the same time, they were really desperately trying to figure out how to navigate the new media landscape, which is something they’re still struggling with. So, Mike took over there at a time of really amazing change in an industry that prior to that had really been kind of a stalled or steady as she goes industry for years, so an interesting time to do that.

And then more recently, after doing all that, he needed a break so he went into the extremely taxing world of restaurant ownership, which is …

Elise Orlowski (02:11):

Oh, wow.

Tripp Underwood (02:11):

Yeah.

Elise Orlowski (02:11):

That’s not easy during a pandemic.

Tripp Underwood (02:13):

Not at all. Out of the … What’s the cliché? Out of the fire, into the frying pan or visa versa. Out of the frying pan, into the fire. Either way, it was hot in both places so he’s not getting as much rest …

Elise Orlowski (02:22):

Sure, sure.

Tripp Underwood (02:23):

… As I’m sure he wanted to. So, we’ll get into that. And on top of all that he is on the board of directors of at least four companies, I think, including Cramer, which is why we’re …

Elise Orlowski (02:23):

Amazing.

Tripp Underwood (02:33):

… Talking to him today. Yeah, he’s helped guide our ship for a number of years, which we’re incredibly grateful for. Just all around, he has a knack for succeeding a in a ton of industries that are constantly evolving, which I think is going to make him the quintessential guest for this podcast.

Elise Orlowski (02:46):

Yeah. Sounds perfect for Pivot Points.

Tripp Underwood (02:47):

Let’s bring him in and talk to Mike Sheehan. I’m really looking forward to picking his brain.

Elise Orlowski (02:51):

Yeah, let’s welcome him. Good morning, Mike.

Tripp Underwood (02:51):

There he is.

Elise Orlowski (02:51):

How you doing?

Mike Sheehan (02:56):

Hey, everyone. Good, how you doing?

Elise Orlowski (02:57):

Good. Good to see you. We’re super excited to have you on today. I think we’re going to have a great conversation.

Mike Sheehan (03:02):

It’s good to be here. Thanks.

Tripp Underwood (03:03):

Cool. Mike, to kick it off, as I mentioned in the upfront you’ve just been really incredibly successful in industries that really went through a lot of change when you were at the helm, both advertising, specifically print media, which is something I’m interested in because as I mentioned, I spent some time at the Globe a little bit prior to your landing over there, and then also the restaurant industry, which is also constantly evolving, especially this past year.

As someone that has seen that from a couple of different ways and from the top … you were in a leadership position in all of those industries … in your mind, what makes for a really … what separates the good leaders from the great leaders when encountering change?

Mike Sheehan (03:52):

I think the main difference is … There’s a cliché that says that people don’t like change. I think it’s pretty universal.

Elise Orlowski (04:05):

2020 has taught me that.

Mike Sheehan (04:08):

If you’ve ever managed a company, you realize that it’s not true of everyone but it’s true of probably the majority of people that people don’t like change. I think one of the key things is the realization … And you mentioned three different organizations. All went through incredible change and they’re still going through change, and so I think the difference is you have to love it, embrace it and actually be fueled by change. I worked at Hill Holiday for 20 years. It was a great run. We had a great time. But I needed to change after 20 years. My personality is that I don’t like stagnation. I don’t like to do the same thing over and over again.

My career started in journalism and then it started in advertising. And my first four jobs in advertising were three years each because I couldn’t sit still. But in that time I got experience at some great agencies in Boston and Chicago so that when I went to Hill Holiday and finally settled down for 20 years and actually left for a year, went back to Chicago, change was not … It wasn’t something I was scared of. In fact, I love it. I just love the challenge of it. I think that’s the difference – that it’s easier to lead when you’re not afraid of change.

Tripp Underwood (04:08):

Right.

Mike Sheehan (05:54):

In fact, you just embrace it and love it.

Tripp Underwood (05:56):

How do you inspire that flexibility in a workforce? I understand how it works for you as a leader and I think it’s been a boon to you. How do you get the people like myself … Ask my wife, I’m very resistant to change. What could you say to me as an employee to help me get used to the idea of things are going to be different but that can be okay. In fact, it could even be good?

Mike Sheehan (06:16):

Listen, I think that the examples … You have to show examples of industries where people didn’t change or companies where they didn’t change and they’re extinct.  Listen, I’ve worked at four agencies in Boston.

Elise Orlowski (06:36):

Wow.

Mike Sheehan (06:38):

The only one still alive and breathing is Hill Holiday because the others kept doing what they were doing. You build a business model, you become profitable, and the last thing you want to do is to risk that. But if you don’t and you don’t adapt and you don’t change, it’s gone within five or 10 years and so you have to convince people that they’re better off being part of something that’s changed. And then you have to support them when they take risks. They’ll do things that don’t work. That’s part of adapting to change and you have to support them. There needs to be an acceptance that failure does happen and …

Tripp Underwood (07:30):

It’s not the end of the world.

Elise Orlowski (07:34):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (07:34):

Not the end of the world.

Elise Orlowski (07:34):

Oh, yeah.

Mike Sheehan (07:35):

Right, right.

Tripp Underwood (07:35):

I think that mentality of the business model is incredibly important but the profitability is still the star of the show …

Elise Orlowski (07:42):

Yeah.

Tripp Underwood (07:43):

And if one of those things has to change, it should be the business model otherwise … I think that example of pointing out extinct … We see it a lot now of … The Blockbuster example.

Elise Orlowski (07:43):

Yeah.

Tripp Underwood (07:54):

Of just king of the world for so long, kind of ignored what was happening in the market and then a year later it’s completely gone. So, I think for someone like me, as I mentioned, who is resistant to change, that kind of stark example of, “You can keep doing it the old way, but this is what happens …” is probably a great reminder so that’s great advice.

Elise Orlowski (07:54):

Oh, yeah.

Mike Sheehan (08:11):

No, listen. In my time at Hill Holiday we pitched Blockbuster. We pitched Sears. The Sears pitch, to me, was the most illuminating because at the time we brought in ideas that were business transformational. They wanted ad campaigns. They thought ad campaigns were going to save the business and we …

Tripp Underwood (08:34):

The old business model.

Mike Sheehan (08:36):

We had a fundamental idea, which was you take all your retail which is dying space, you turn it into distribution centers and you become the next Amazon or you just become a digital powerhouse because you’ve got all that space at the South Shore Plaza.

Tripp Underwood (08:51):

Yep.

Mike Sheehan (08:52):

Go walk the floors. Nobody’s there. Why is there nobody there? Because half the shelves are empty. It’s over. When we pitched it, this was 15 years ago. Their business model was over then but you sat there and you just realized that the only thing they wanted were advertising ideas and they thought that was going to save the company.

Tripp Underwood (09:13):

Couldn’t let go.

Mike Sheehan (09:14):

So you knew …

Elise Orlowski (09:15):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (09:16):

When you left there, you knew they were toast. Blockbuster, we pitched … We might have squeezed out three or five years but they weren’t going to be Netflix. Generally, they’re in the rooms and they tend to denigrate Netflix. Then you know they’re in trouble. I remember when I was working on the Top Flight golf business and I was working … I was shooting a spot with two PGA tour pros and we were in Chicago, we’re shooting the spots. We’re in between takes, we’re sitting in chairs and the news came out that Nike had signed Tiger Woods. And all there was was denigration by the Top Flight people that it was the dumbest thing they could ever do and say.

The great Converse story. Michael Jordan wore Converse at North Carolina and he went up to Converse and that was the first place he went with his agent. And he said he wanted the same compensation, the same deal that Magic Johnson and Larry Bird had. And he was told that, “You’re not Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. We’ll see you later. Good luck, whatever you’re doing.” And he went out to Beaverton, Oregon and signed with Nike and the rest is history.

This is the stuff you see all the time, so if you’re not going to be part of those kind of new, big ideas you’re going to be gone.

Tripp Underwood (10:52):

Yep.

Elise Orlowski (10:52):

Yeah. Mike, as I’m listening to you, I think you have so much experience and you definitely seem like someone that does not want to stand still, which I can relate to. I’m definitely not a person that likes to stand still, either. But it can be exhausting, you know what I mean? I think at some point people want to achieve that homeostasis in their life and even they just achieve a level and don’t know where to go from there. What motivates you to keep moving? To keep finding these different areas to really invest in and grow and expand? I’m curious.

Mike Sheehan (11:24):

I don’t like to sit still. I knew when I was in my final years at Hill Holiday … I knew that I loved to work and I loved to do things, but I didn’t … At that point, I think I was 52 when I left. I didn’t want a job job. I didn’t want … I love to work. I don’t want a job. And I think that’s kind of … When I did the Globe thing I did it for … Oops, sorry about that. When I did the Globe thing, I did it for three years right from the start because I knew 36 months, that’s a short car loan. You can do anything for 36 months. But it was still a job. You have an office, you have a desk. And I like to manage by being present, so you don’t have a lot of options. You got to be there. And that’s just not … I love to work and I love change and I love doing new things. I just don’t like doing the same thing over and over and over. I don’t care how well it’s going.

Tripp Underwood (12:37):

Cool.

Mike Sheehan (12:38):

I just don’t want to do it over and over again. I just get bored. I remember driving to my first day at the Globe and being very excited that for the first time in a long time, I was driving to work with a pit in my stomach.

Elise Orlowski (12:53):

Yeah. Yeah.

Tripp Underwood (12:53):

Nervous energy.

Mike Sheehan (12:55):

Listen, I didn’t have that. We were on an incredible run at Hill Holiday.

Tripp Underwood (12:55):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (13:00):

It was great.

Elise Orlowski (13:01):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (13:01):

We had a great team. It was amazing. But I didn’t have a pit in my stomach anymore. The machine was running very well, and so that was … But I like that feeling.

Elise Orlowski (13:17):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (13:17):

I just like that feeling of not knowing if this is going to work out or what you’re going to walk into. Believe me, that was walking into something that I probably anticipated 25% of what I would walk into when I walked into the Globe.

Tripp Underwood (13:36):

What were the other 75%, if I could say? What were some of the things that you did not see coming that really wowed you in terms of taking over that organization at that time?

Mike Sheehan (13:46):

Listen, I came in right when John and Linda bought it.

Tripp Underwood (13:51):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (13:52):

And they bought it. The New York Times. It had been owned by the Taylor family forever. Listen, those presses printed money for over 100 years. It was high revenue, incredibly profitable. If you were an advertiser, you had to be in the Globe.

Tripp Underwood (14:17):

Yep.

Mike Sheehan (14:17):

Everybody remembers the Thanksgiving Day Boston Globe that you needed a forklift to put in your living room.

Tripp Underwood (14:26):

Yeah, the size of a phone book.

Elise Orlowski (14:27):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (14:28):

Yeah, exactly. Those full-page ads were $50,000 each. I mean it was just unbelievable. And The New York Times paid a huge premium for it. I don’t know. 1.1, 1.2 billion dollars they paid for it. And they bled it dry.

Tripp Underwood (14:50):

Yep.

Mike Sheehan (14:52):

The focus for them was The New York Times, it wasn’t the Globe. And they sucked out expenses. They didn’t invest. And in that time when everyone was longing for the good old days to return it was really apparent that they were never going to return and that was the enjoyable part of doing it was when John and Linda bought it there was no ambiguity that the Globe was going digital and we were going to charge for it. And that’s one thing. Even when I was in the agency business I greatly resented giving away ideas for free.

Tripp Underwood (15:34):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (15:34):

And I think …

Elise Orlowski (15:34):

As we all do.

Mike Sheehan (15:37):

… You still see clients like, “Well, give me the strategy for free and I’ll go from there.”

Tripp Underwood (15:41):

Yeah, exactly.

Mike Sheehan (15:44):

So I fought it tooth and nail on the agency side. And I think that’s one thing that the Globe’s done probably better than any other major metro daily in the country is they charge for their content and they don’t apologize for it.

Tripp Underwood (15:44):

Yep.

Mike Sheehan (16:01):

And they charge a premium for it because it’s worth a premium and they get it. And subscriptions are growing and they’ve been growing for five, six, seven years. And they just did what others didn’t have the …

Tripp Underwood (16:18):

Gumption.

Mike Sheehan (16:21):

Well …

Tripp Underwood (16:21):

The polite word.

Mike Sheehan (16:21):

Or the guts to do. Yeah. There was this false belief that it was all about eyeballs and if you got eyeballs, everything else was good.

Tripp Underwood (16:33):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (16:34):

But it wasn’t. These are business enterprises. It was about money and revenue and the Globe’s done that. I think that was … And I think that The New York Times has done well. I think The Wall Street Journal set the tone for it. The Journal has never given away their content from day one. The Globe had two … They did Boston.com and Boston Globe and there was ambiguity; one’s free, one you got to pay for. Why would I pay when I get one for free?

One thing John and Linda had a real clear vision for is if you create a quality product and it’s a premium product, and it is, you got to charge for it. And that will be the saving grace of the Globe versus other major metro dailies in the country because the ones … The Chicago Tribune was just bought by Alden Capital. That will be a shell of itself in 12 months from now.

Tripp Underwood (17:32):

Wow.

Mike Sheehan (17:32):

Because they just strip out costs. And that’s what you see at a lot of cities but I think Boston’s going to … John will go down as having saved an institution, which …

Tripp Underwood (17:46):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (17:46):

A really important institution.

Tripp Underwood (17:48):

Two of them, if you look at his track record.

Mike Sheehan (17:50):

Yes.

Tripp Underwood (17:50):

After he bought the Socks.

Mike Sheehan (17:51):

Listen. And Liverpool. He’s done it across the board. And that’s a feather in the cap.

Tripp Underwood (18:03):

Interesting. So, John had a vision, you agreed with the vision or at least bought into it enough. What was it like in the newsroom? Because I imagine … If we talk about earlier, people who are reluctant to change … My time in that industry was very few people were reluctant to change and an editor at a desk in a major city newspaper. So, what was the attitude there when you went in and said, “The good old days aren’t coming back.”?

Mike Sheehan (18:26):

There was an understanding that the … Obviously, the world is changing. And given that the layoffs that had happened at the Globe over the past 20 years in the news room, they’ve really … Brian McGrory, the editor, has done a great job of keeping it. It’s still staffed very, very well. It’s not overstaffed but it’s staffed well. I think they, as a group … I think they feel … They wish … I think you wish for a different era but there’s an acceptance …

Tripp Underwood (18:26):

Right.

Mike Sheehan (19:21):

… That the world has changed. And listen, it’s hard not to because they cover a changing world. God, that’s what they do every day. And I think that there’s an understanding that you’re working at a paper that has a spotlight team and I think the spotlight team has more journalists on it now than they probably did seven or eight years ago and that’s …. But it’s challenging because it’s not what it was.

Tripp Underwood (19:57):

Yeah.

Elise Orlowski (19:58):

Yeah.

Tripp Underwood (19:58):

Get it. Setting expectations of what’s feasible versus what you wish could be.

Mike Sheehan (19:58):

Right.

Elise Orlowski (19:58):

Which I feel like …

Mike Sheehan (20:03):

A distinct …

Elise Orlowski (20:06):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (20:06):

We’re dealing with that a lot now at Cramer in the switch to virtual.

Tripp Underwood (20:10):

Yeah.

Elise Orlowski (20:10):

Yeah. I feel like even the turn to virtual events for our clients, at first … Tripp and I are both creative directors here, did live events. Our whole mindset was live, in person. And then virtual, people knew they had to do it but I think now getting back, 2021, we’ve been able to do virtual and online and digital really well so now …

Tripp Underwood (20:33):

Yes.

Elise Orlowski (20:33):

… How does that integrate?

Tripp Underwood (20:34):

Right. And it’s been surprising. For years, a big part of my job was beating this drum of there’s nothing that can ever replace that in-person connection that we help create for our clients and I still believe that very strongly. However, when that was taken away from us, quite literally by COVID, it was like, “Okay, everything I’ve been saying for the past couple of years, I need to now rethink because if that’s truly true, what are we going to do? We’re out of business.” And, as it turned out, as the virtual meetings started to take off, I realized there was all these other capabilities that I had not been previously really paying attention to, or at least not close enough, the way it offered different metrics. The way you could expand the reach of how these things … how far they can go. I was like, “Oh, there’s a lot of value here.”

I still think the in-person connection is incredibly important, but that doesn’t mean you can throw the baby out with the bathwater of all the things that ….

Elise Orlowski (20:34):

For sure.

Tripp Underwood (21:24):

… Virtual offers, too. And now it’s become retraining my brain on how to think of these things, of both value of each and separate but both pretty good.

Elise Orlowski (21:33):

Yeah. And even just … I think we’re talking about the Globe, right? Whether digital or you’re buying it, it’s about the content.

Tripp Underwood (21:39):

The content is a perfect example.

Elise Orlowski (21:40):

Which we live, eat and breathe, right?

Tripp Underwood (21:42):

Yeah.

Elise Orlowski (21:42):

If the content is good, whether it’s in-person or live, whether it’s digital or you’re grabbing it off the shelf, you know what I mean? That’s what’s really important.

Tripp Underwood (21:50):

Yes.

Elise Orlowski (21:51):

And that’s what’s truly going to engage people.

Tripp Underwood (21:53):

They’re not paying for the newspaper.

Mike Sheehan (21:54):

Listen, I …

Tripp Underwood (21:55):

They’re paying for the content.

Mike Sheehan (21:56):

I would challenge you, if you … the Globe newsroom, 200 and something … 250 journalists back on Marcy Boulevard. You’d walk through there on a busy … towards deadline and there’d be probably 150 of them there at a time and it’s vibrant and there’s energy.

Tripp Underwood (22:17):

Energy.

Mike Sheehan (22:17):

And that changes overnight, right?

Tripp Underwood (22:17):

Yep.

Mike Sheehan (22:19):

And everyone’s working from home.

Elise Orlowski (22:21):

Oh, yeah.

Mike Sheehan (22:21):

And they’re sourcing material, not on their feet, not face-to-face, by and large. But I would challenge you to look at the coverage in the Globe the past year and be able to tell that there was COVID in the world.

Tripp Underwood (22:44):

Right.

Mike Sheehan (22:44):

Other than the coverage of COVID.

Tripp Underwood (22:46):

Outside of the headlines.

Mike Sheehan (22:48):

Which may or may not have been overdone. But I would challenge you to recognize that there was anything different in the world. I think they were ready. If you ask about the newsroom, they were prepared for anything. A newsroom is a little bit like an emergency room in a hospital. No matter what, the job gets done. They figure out a way.

Tripp Underwood (22:48):

Right.

Mike Sheehan (23:22):

I think they were prepared for it. They were ready. Having no idea what was coming, I think having been what they’d through the past 20 years, they’re ready for change. And I think that’s reflected in the success they’ve been having.

Tripp Underwood (23:39):

Mike, lastly, you mentioned the restaurant and I’d love just to hear a little bit about that because I think it’s interesting as somebody that has worked in bars, been a patron of bars, I know it is deceptively difficult work with a thin profit margin, depending on how you’re doing. And I just want to know a little bit of what your experience has been like there and tell me a little bit about what it’s like managing a kitchen staff versus an advertising staff? Two very different classes of people in terms of what’s expected of them, what they’re doing. And I’d just love to get your take on how they’re alike and how they’re different.

Mike Sheehan (24:13):

Yeah. Listen, there are similarities, particularly because in the kitchen you’ve got … There’s a high degree of creativity. There’s certainly perfection. Perfection in the quality of the food.

Tripp Underwood (24:31):

Yep.

Mike Sheehan (24:31):

You’re always aiming for whatever goes out to be perfect. There’s the allergy side of it, which is … It has to be … You can’t make a mistake.

Tripp Underwood (24:43):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (24:43):

We’ve got a gluten-free fryer and so people have to be on their toes to make sure that we’re not serving anything that’s not … that could be hazardous.

Tripp Underwood (24:56):

Dangerous. New level of detail.

Elise Orlowski (24:58):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Sheehan (24:59):

Totally. But I think it’s a little different. And it’s been eye-opening, certainly, for me because it’s a transient business. The folks who work in the kitchen have … what I’ve experienced, have tended to be treated not particularly well where they’ve worked before. And almost disposable. You know, “If you don’t like it, we’ll go get another one.”

Elise Orlowski (25:31):

Yep.

Mike Sheehan (25:31):

And that’s just never been the way that I’ve operated. I try to create an environment where people are valued. And we actually have some people who have been with us from the beginning.

Tripp Underwood (25:41):

Great.

Mike Sheehan (25:42):

And that’s the goal. But you have to treat people very similarly. You can’t treat them any differently. You have to … You know, the golden rule.

Tripp Underwood (25:57):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (25:57):

How would you want to be treated? You just got to treat them well and hope they return the favor.

Tripp Underwood (26:03):

Great philosophy.

Elise Orlowski (26:04):

Yeah.

Tripp Underwood (26:05):

And probably speaks to some of your success. Clearly, that’s worked out for you in a lot of different places so there’s got to be some truth to it. Can’t just be making it all …

Mike Sheehan (26:14):

Yeah. It always has. Yeah. People, they’re not commodities, you know? Everyone has different issues and you just got to listen, too. You can’t just … Nobody owes you anything. You have to treat them well.

Elise Orlowski (26:34):

Well, Mike, you’ve really inspired me. As someone who never wants to stay still, you’re living proof that it definitely works to your advantage, so thanks for that.

Tripp Underwood (26:44):

Yeah. What do you want your obituary to read?

Elise Orlowski (26:49):

Oh, yeah.

Tripp Underwood (26:49):

What do you want to do with your life? Seriously.

Elise Orlowski (26:54):

“They died doing what they love.”

Mike Sheehan (26:58):

No, seriously. Listen. I’m not like a workaholic. Certainly the way that I’ve managed it by working without having a job, it’s … I don’t spend time doing that which I don’t want to do. Or doing it with people with whom I don’t want to work.

Tripp Underwood (26:58):

Right.

Mike Sheehan (27:21):

I think that is key. And I do manage my time well. I’m not a big golfer. I belong to a club. I haven’t set foot on it for three years. It’s fine but I don’t want to spend five hours doing that when I can be productive.

Tripp Underwood (27:45):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (27:45):

I don’t know. You just want to be productive.

Tripp Underwood (27:47):

Yeah. Stay engaged. What’s the cliché?

Mike Sheehan (27:55):

Exactly. Exactly.

Tripp Underwood (27:55):

Love what you do and you’ll never work a day in your life.

Mike Sheehan (27:55):

Yeah.

Tripp Underwood (27:57):

And I don’t know if that’s particularly accurate, but I do think that we’re only here for a certain amount of time and you got to do something so might as well enjoy it. And to your point, it might as well be productive and, God willing, allow for more connections and engagements with other people.

Elise Orlowski (28:11):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (28:12):

Absolutely. And if you don’t like it … If you don’t like what you’re doing, leave.

Tripp Underwood (28:16):

Yeah.

Mike Sheehan (28:18):

I’ve never had an option. Everything I’ve ever done. When I stopped wanting to do it, I stopped doing it. And I made it my choice and said, “Enough’s enough. I want to go do something else. There’s got to be something else …”

Elise Orlowski (28:35):

Takes a lot of courage.

Mike Sheehan (28:36):

“… That can challenge me more.” Yeah. I don’t know. I think it just takes … You just got to break the habit.

Tripp Underwood (28:44):

Well, Mike, it’s been a pleasure.

Elise Orlowski (28:45):

Yes, thank you so much.

Tripp Underwood (28:46):

Inspiring and just good, real concrete stuff.

Mike Sheehan (28:50):

My pleasure. Thanks. Have a great day, you guys.

Tripp Underwood (28:50):

1. Take care, my friend.

Elise Orlowski (28:52):

Take care. Bye.

Mike Sheehan (28:54):

Thanks. Bye, bye.

Tripp Underwood (28:55):

That was awesome.

Elise Orlowski (28:56):

That was great, yeah.

Tripp Underwood (28:57):

Knowledgeable guy. Been through a lot, learned a lot. Very humble despite all his success.

Elise Orlowski (29:02):

Yeah.

Tripp Underwood (29:02):

The thing I like the most is hearing about … the way he talked about the most exciting day that he could remember in his recent career life was … He was like, what? In his mid-50s or something driving to the Globe with a pit in his stomach on his first day of work.

Elise Orlowski (29:02):

Right.

Tripp Underwood (29:20):

And how that was the best day of work he’s had in a long time.

Elise Orlowski (29:24):

Right, right.

Tripp Underwood (29:24):

I thought that was super interesting and a little inspiring as someone who does not personally deal well with change and has been forced to deal with a lot of change over the past 18 months. To hear him articulate that, of, “It’s okay. Be uncomfortable. Find some creative passion or some fire or at least some energy out of your uncomfortableness and then use it to your advantage,” I think is great advice.

Elise Orlowski (29:45):

No. Yeah, I love that. Especially after this year, I think having to deal with so much change I really related to it. I’m like, “I feel like having a pit in my stomach was the whole year of working in 2020,” whether being at home or here. So, it’s really inspiring to see, I think, that through these tough times change can really happen and actually work to our advantage. It’s kind of that light at the end of the tunnel.

Tripp Underwood (30:05):

Exactly.

Elise Orlowski (30:05):

As you would say.

Tripp Underwood (30:06):

It’s something to work towards. And having a specific example of somebody like that.

Elise Orlowski (30:06):

Yeah.

Tripp Underwood (30:11):

Who’s like, “I have been through this change. I’ve been through that change. The one thing I can tell you is that the universal answer is you do get through it. Just try to be nimble. Try to keep an open mind.” This idea of we are ultimately working towards something and there is going to be success on the other side at the other end, six months from now, whatever your timeline is. But the idea is you are working towards something and if you can just be comfortable in the change, be hardworking, be open-minded and just trust the process that even though you might not know exactly what’s going to happen right in front of you, you know where you want to end up, I think is great advice.

Elise Orlowski (30:45):

It’s the secret to the sauce.

Tripp Underwood (30:46):

Secret to the sauce. Secret to making it through 20 and 21.

Elise Orlowski (30:50):

Yeah.

Tripp Underwood (30:51):

For sure.

Elise Orlowski (30:51):

Like always, I’m Elise Orlowski.

Tripp Underwood (30:53):

I’m Tripp Underwood.

Elise Orlowski (30:54):

Awesome. And we’ll see you on the next episode of Pivot Points.